The Academy Awards always bring a little conversation, in particular, MICHAEL MOORE

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:

When did I condemn your whole nation as being pro war?...... Perhaps we are speaking different languages.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, here's the language you speak:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:


What really pisses me off is that the USA has it's hand up the arse of my glove puppet of a country. I don't know how it happened that the country that
stood alone against Hitler is now subserviant to an America which seems to be out of control, taking a moral high ground whilst ignoring several International treaties and laws, flagrantly disregarding the UN, wrecklessly stumbling around as though still believing itself to be invincible, whilst holding half of the world under the illusion of it's protective wing, whilst acquiring enemies at an exponential rate. These are scary times, and I for one have a horrible sense of forboding for America and it's
allies.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
your nation loves to rewrite history, especially in your movies</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
It seems it takes the Germans to tell our governments how hideous they are behaving - they know - unlike US they've spent the last 50 years making sure Imperialist fascism never happens to them again.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
US will fight a vicious war against any nation that threatens their hegemony and omnipotency and financial supremacy</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
Europeans had hoped that after 9/11, the US might have taken some time out and considered why whole nations despise them, and even their allies in Europe could see something like this coming; perhaps questioned the underlying immorality of the capitalist Imerialism and unmitigated greed with which America perpetuates its international position in the world.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
The World Trade Centre was an apt target for a violent and crazy people, who have seen their nations economically bullied by America, the big brother, in what amounts to no less than imperialism.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
To allow you to get away with sayiing that America is doing its duty as the badass nation would be to trust you merely because, like me, you're predominantly white and speak English. What real proof is there that you're not the crack smoking crazies of the world?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
I merely bemoaned the fact that "the country who stood alone against Hitler" was now subservient to the monstorous USA</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
what do I care? Seven astronaughts - big deal, frankly!</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
This is, rather cynically, the US trying to force poor desperate nations to become dependantly linked to their economy and technology</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
Diplomacy USA style, seems to be of the "Do exactly what we want or we'll destroy you" school.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, of course, we close with these two gems:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
I would say that America is an Imperialist state, and that it is in fact considerably more dangerous than Nazi Germany or The British Empire or any other hegemony in History</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:
What a stupid comment, Roger. I would have expected better of you. You come over as the stereotypical "ignorant, arrogant, right wing American.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

With all due respect, how on earth can you continue to posture against conflict when your're always out to pick a fight?

I enjoy talking about film with you, Lucas, but when it comes to world politics, frankly, I'm sick of your anti-American prose thinly disguised as pseudo-intellectual BS because you "think you know more about the war than others". You don't have access to any special information that gives you higher insight than anyone else. You simply, and quite obviously, have a grudge against the US and it shows every single time you post. Please stop it.

Roger

[Matt Pacini]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cal godot:
"....demonstrating, once more with feeling, that the Local S8 Defenders of America can only name-call and back-bite in defense of their great nation...".</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this laughable, given all the quotes that moviestuff posted that Lightfeat has made on this board.
I have never, ever seen more name calling from one person on this board (that includes the infamous Alex) than have come from Lightfeat.

He heaps all this anti-American bigotry on us, and his excuse is that American stereotypes are common amongst Europeans?
Huh?
My point, by the way, of my earlier post was, that lightfeat, you blame us American citizens on this board for everything that our goverment does, simply because we're U.S. citizens, but you are somehow exempt from what YOUR country does, by attemtping to diminish the effect of your own citizenship, by talking about what sport team you like, or that you like the Scots or whatever.
THAT is what the *&#$*& I'm talking about.
You are 100% as responsible for Britain's actions, as I am for American's actions, and Britain is absolutely knee deep in the Iraq war, just like us.
If you had half the intelligence that you think you have, you would see clearly how ridiculous your own bigotry is.
Must I remind you that no country on earth, except possibly ancient Rome, has grabbed as much foreign soil as your own?
I could go on for hours, talking about the atrocities that your country has committed, including one's on it's own citizens living here, who grew so tired of it they rebelled and formed their own country!
Do I blame you for this?
No.
So get off our backs, OK?

Matt

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 28, 2003 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Matt Pacini ]</font>

[calgodot]

Maybe somebody needs to remind you, Matt, that the legendary anti-American European sentiment vanished in the wake of 9/11. "We are all Americans now," some headlines read, or similar sentiments. (That phrase in particular was LeMonde's headline two days after the attack.)

What has happened since then to erode that sentiment and turn it into rhetoric that can certainly be fairly described as "anti-American?"

What does "anti-American" mean anyway? Anti the things America stands for, which is what we Americans typically resort to in defending the coutnry against criticism, and Anti the things the American government does, in the name of Americans and their interests, often the very things we are forced to defend against the critics?

[lightfeat]

No, No, No Matt. You have got me all wrong. Indeed, you have.

I have never made blanket judgements of all Americans. I have said that there are stereotypes which most of the world relate to - you are not the most poular nation in the world, you know. Not any more at least. Sorry if this is upsetting to hear, or if you think that they are unfair - most stereotypes are unfair, despite often containing a grain of truth.

My considerring myself English rather than British is not even relevant. It is nothing to do with my disassociation with my nation - either Britain or England or the UK or whatever. It's just that Britain encompasses other countries which I cannot personally relate to - yes, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all seperate countries- a lot of British people do not think of themselves as being European either, because we live on an island - it's nothing more than my personal identity. I am English and British, but I prefer to consider myself English and that has absolutely no significance, as far as I can see, on War etc. and I never for a moment suggested that it had - you merely assumed.

I am no more 100% responsible for Britain's actions than you are for America's. How silly of you to think that I hold all American individuals responsible for your nations actions. And to suggest that I have ever hypocritically claimed that Britain isn't involved in this War - again - when have I ever said this? What are you talking about.

I have criticised your country (wow Roger, you really trawled through the archives there - nice work batman). Yes I have, and I make no apologies for it. Please feel free to list the myriad of crimes my country committed when it was a colonial power. Go for it. Does that justify Saddam in his crimes now? No. Does it justify America's or France's or Britain's or anywhere elses crimes now? No. So what relevance does my country's past crimes have to do with pots calling kettles black - well, none unless you're still in the playground picking fights. Is this an adult conversation here? So no I will not get off US's back (would it help if I said Bush or congress instead of US?) OK, then so be it. Bush (and Blair) are in my opinion doing something very very dangerous, and I feel it is important to speak out against it. I can scarcely be bothered reiterating to you that in spite of everything I have said, I am not anti-American, but I do feel that American poitics is in many ways deplorable, and I find that your (yes your personal) patriotism, taken to the point where you feel I am personally attacking you and your identity when I speak out against America's political situation, is very troubling indeed. If I cannot criticise America's politics when you are by far the most powerful nation on earth, and the self promoted "greatest democracy in the world / land of the free etc." without you guys getting all upset about it, and thinking I'm just having a dig, then I would suggest that that is a nationalistic sentiment, which is also very troubling - if you were the next nazi equivelant, would you see it through the lens of unfalterring love for your nation? You will remember that I said that I think that America is more dangerous than Nazi Germany - this was considereed a shocking and deplorable statement of mine by many, and I was heavvily persecuted for saying it. Why? I think there is evidence for this, and I am certainaly not alone in thinking it - perhaps I'm a minority on this forum, but hideous as this feeling may seem to you, it is what I believe - sincerely. Not to piss you off, and not because I "hate Americans" or any other such rubbish. I am scared of WW3, I think it is well underway, and I am unhappy that Britain has allied with the US in this war. I believe that it is evil - yes evil - a word we are allowed to use regarding 9/11 or the holocaust, and I believe also here too.

Lucas

[MikeBrantley]

Okey doke, folks. It's time to make your arrangements to continue this off-topic discussion via e-mail or some other forum. I'm going to put the lock on this thread at the end of the evening.

Some of the arguments have been made with eloquence, and all have been made with the passion that the subject matter deserves. But... this just isn't the place for it.

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by lightfeat:

I have criticised your country (wow Roger, you really trawled through the archives there - nice work batman).</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, old chum, it was ridiculously easy. Finding a quote where you DIDN'T trash America was the hard part.

The difference between you and me is that I admit that the information I have available is incomplete and disjointed and that no one really knows the whole truth. You, on the other hand, sling insults based on your superior belief that you think you know more than others. Further, your continued labeling of me as some sort of overtly patriotic nationalist is so laughable my wife nearly had a fit while reading your missives. Her comment was, "Doesn't this guy actually read any of your posts?"

For the record, (again), I do not care for Bush. I do not trust him any more than I trusted his father. I am not in favor of this war and never was. I am not a defender of the war and the whole thing scares me to death.

I have no idea what sort of "special" information that you feel you have that lifts your insight above us mere mortals, but I can say that your apparent inability to understand my position, as clearly as its been posted time and again, casts your cognitive skills in serious doubt so any special information, assuming it exists at all, is certainly wasted on you. If this special information doesn't exist, then that means you are operating on the same limited information that we all do, despite your claim that you know more than others about this very, very complicated issue.

It is highly unlikely that any of us will ever know the truth regarding this war or any other war. We just are not privy to that kind of information. That is the only indisputable fact in this whole sordid affair.

Roger

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MikeBrantley:
Okey doke, folks. It's time to make your arrangements to continue this off-topic discussion via e-mail or some other forum.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

My apologies, Mike. I didn't see your post until after I responded to Lucas. I will delete it if you prefer.

Roger

[calgodot]

Thanks Mike, for letting it go this long.

Well said, Roger. That's the most eloquent you've been in making that point.

-peace to everyone-

[cameraguy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cal godot:
The invasion of Iraq by US-led forces is illegal. It is the equivalent of what Saddam did to Kuwait, what the Soviets did to Afghanistan, what Hitler did to Poland. A government that promotes and leads such an action is not a moral government. A citizenry which supports or allows such a government is not a moral people.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see, if the US was invading Iraq because it had lots of oil and was going to systematically exterminate all the people in there then I would agree with your statement above. You really can't see the difference? You are just a hateful person with highly questionable morals of your own. But most of all I think you are just an on call troll looking to pick a useless argument. Kudos, M. Brantley for letting this absolute gibberish go on & on.

[calgodot]

And kudos to you for making it personal and demonstrating, once more with feeling, that the Local S8 Defenders of America can only name-call and back-bite in defense of their great nation. You'd think that a country drenched in free expression and political discourse could muster a few citizens with a reasonable defense of their own nation's actions. (You'd think it, and you'd be wrong.) Good job, Cameraguy. Now come back and call me a Commie Pinko Hippy, suggest that I go join Saddam if I love him so much, and my life (and argument) will be complete.